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I’m not convinced we don’t have a nasty choice here; arguing that this house is on fire slightly less than that house is not an enviable position.
Elitist Confucian governance was never something we should, as a species, have celebrated, in any of its forms.
Comment received by email from Fan Xiao: ”
Dear Prof. Pastreich,
As a native of Beijing and an ardent lover of the Forbidden Palace, I read your opinion piece titled “The truth about our palaces” published by Joongang Ilbo with great interest. I do agree with what you said about the striking differences between the Korean palaces such as Gyongbuk and Changdeok etc. and the Forbidden City in Beijing in terms of posture and the overall impression they leave on people. One observation of mine is that Korean palaces are more intimate and cozier with trees, gardens and ponds filling up large portions of the palaces, they struck me as more exquisite and refined in details compared to the Forbidden Palace. However, I am not sure whether I can agree with your assertion that Korean kings (of the Joseon dynasty in particular) and their higher officials were more democratic, to quote your words “more transparent, more accountable to citizens and otherwise more human in formal representation to the public”.
You cited Emperor Yongle and King Sejong as two contrasting examples to prove your case, but honestly, everyone knows King Sejong was arguably the most benevolent king of the Joseon dynasty, but exactly how representative was he? King Taejong before him, King Sejo, King Seonjo etc. after him were not exactly that benevolent, “democratic”, “accountable” kings, were they (not to mention the likes of deposed kings such as Yeonsangun and Gwanghaegun)? Can you really paint Korean history under Joseon dynasty in broad strokes by citing King Sejong as a proof to what you claimed “good governance in the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries” in Korea? The Yangban system and the strict class-based system in Joseon Korea which struck me as something almost similar to India’s caste system pointed us to a different Korea, I am afraid, one that was far from being “democratic”, “transparent” and “accountable” to its people, one that was not much better than Ming China.
With regard to references of Korean historical figures such as King Sejong and Dasan Jeong Yak-yong, they actually get very decent coverage on the Chinese internet. I don’t know which Baidu page you stumbled upon, for example King Sejong’s page in Chinese is quite extensive and covers a lot of his achievements from various areas (
http://baike.baidu.com/subview/282778/19867117.htm?fromtitle=%E4%B8%96%E5%AE%97%E5%A4%A7%E7%8E%8B&fromid=1682482&type=syn). It is much more impressive than the English page of Wikipedia on Sejong (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sejong_the_Great). You might find this helpful, by the way, on Jeong Ya-yong (http://www.baike.com/wiki/%E4%B8%81%E8%8B%A5%E9%95%9B).
China can sure learn a lot from South Korea and I do agree that South Korea can offer something that might shape China’s future and the world’s future. But I don’t think glorifying Joseon Korea is the way to do it.
Thanks for your time, professor Pastreich.
Sincerely,
Fan Xiao”
I cannot respond to these comments in depth now, but I would suggest first that there are some limits to any comparisons of such a sweeping nature, but that I feel that it is meaningful to say that Korea in the Joseon was more transparent and that the power of the king was more limited than was the case in the Ming and Qing and that there is an impressive history of transparency and accountability in Korea that in my estimation is worthy of note. Note the function of the Chunchugwan (Hall of History) 春秋馆 But of course there were many corrupt officials and back rulers in Joseon as well and there were noble scholar officials in the late Ming who fought bravely for a more transparent government。 Personally, I was inspired by the members of the Donglin 东林 Academy as a student.
I think that I could put a paper that agued that Joseon was overall more transparent in its politics and their was more accountability for high officials than was the case in the Ming and Qing, but that would ultimately be a subjective call. Joseon did not have the complex secret police and extra-legal bureaucracy surrounding the emperor that existed in China and that made a difference. I personally think the Yongle Emperor was responsible for that development, but we can argue about this point.
I think that the debate on Korea and China’s past is healthy and I welcome more discussion about the actual institutions of Korea and China in the pre-modern period. I will learn much from that debate.
Regarding the use of the word “democracy” I admit that this is an ambiguous term.
But for the Western nations like the United States who treated native Americans like animals and imported Africans to work as slaves with no rights as part of the most brutal system of labor ever invented, we have nothing to say about the system in Korea in China in which, at least at the start, a wide range of people educated in ethics could enter government and exercise real political power based on the exams. The United States was treating a large number of its citizens as second class citizens through the 1960s and in fact this continues to be the case. So as in ancient Greece, there is no “democracy” for those who do not own land and have social status.
Compared with the American, or the European system, in which great wealth was created by invading other nations and stealing their resources from the 16th to 20th centuries, China of the Ming and Qing, or Korea of the Joseon was a democratic paradise of accountability and transparency.
And what about the United States today? Is it a democracy as compared with Korea or China? That is of course another article.